A: The Negative Dillingers mutated into Rank and File. They made a three or four song demo; with Jeff Raphael on drums. There were some gorgeous sounds going on there. There was an instrumental called “The Sultan.” ( a F' Mo 'Cue ) It was a straight-up reggae/dub masterpiece - written & played by Alejandro Escovedo. Kinmen, too. It was influenced by an album that I’d I lent him - Burning Spear’s ‘Garvey's Ghost’, which came out in '78 or so. The first time Al heard this record, he said, “I've got to borrow this, please. It’s some of the most beautiful music that I've ever heard."
Q: What recordings do you feel are most representative of the Dils?
A: The one that was just issued on Dionysus in 2000 is O.K. ( Class War ) The liner notes say it was recorded in 1980. Wrong! That show was probably recorded in July or August '79. We tried to play a show a couple of nights later in Toronto. There was hardly anyone there, & it was pathetic. We were arguing at the sound check, fruitlessly. I found out later that the Kinman braintrust had decided to replace me with zippy pinhead: - PRIOR to the U.S.tour. Apparently, -they figured I was Pete Best; & Zippy was Ringo.
Q: -The Dionysus release is pretty representative?
A: Another re-mix of the ‘green and black’ album released initially. The yellow & black album is a re-hash of other live takes, as well. For some reason they forgot that I sent them the master tape. See; when we broke up on the way home, I was holding this cassette tape. It was recorded off the sound board in St. Johns, Canada, -at the final show: by an angel man; July '79. Final show. God Bless Him.
Chip says ; “By the way, I think you should give that tape to me. I'll make you a copy.”
“No. It was given to me, it's mine.”
I just wanted to get the fuck out of that van.
An ironic thing is : I had smuggled a gram of hash across the Canadian border. Chip relied on me for the herb. Heavily, you know. The whole time we were playing together, I had an Hawaiian/ Thai connection. “Get me stoned John, come on.” Shit. Still waiting, Harold, Jr. It amused Tony. He didn't smoke the herb. But Chip and I were drinking Coca-Colas and smoking all the time. He never paid a dime for any of it, ever. We fed them Sketties & Salad @ my place many, many times.
So I had this Canadian hash on me, for when we got back across the border, so Chip and I could fire up. To relax, & reason. But as we crossed the border, he started ripping into me. Unreal. Bad. Full-blown ferocious foolishness. It just sat in my pocket, all the way back to San Francisco.
Q: What province is St. Johns?
A: It's on the east coast, way up north.
Q: Ontario, or Newfoundland, something like that?
A: St. Johns, Newfoundland. It's a diplomat's town.
Q: Well that's what Negative Trend, the Dils and the Avengers did; blazed a trail in the Northwest. You know this punk touring thing did not exist until bands took it into their own hands-
A: Pre-zactly.
Q: -Any comments on the Portland tape?
A: It's tremendous. I listened to it on my big old 70's hi-fi system, & on the big old Koss headphones. Whoa. Hey! It's not the greatest sound quality in the world; I wish the drums were a little more prominent, but -damn what a set! That was a tremendous show, and I'm really glad that I finally got to hear it. Afterwards, I mean. That's definitely; if not the finest live performance I've ever heard by us, it's definitely one of the best. Jesus Christ, We were on Fire! I can see why people got so excited about Us. We were not only fuckin' incredibly intense, but you could dance to us. No matter how fast we played, I tried to make it danceable, and for the most part I was successful at it, I believe.
Q: Yes. I recognized the value of that recording, right away. But it seems, sonicly, like it's the opposite of the St. Johns thing. In terms of mixing; the St. Johns' guitar is kind of blaring and bleating, like it's coming through a little practice amp; your drum kit's really excellently mic'd and audible. Whereas the Portland recording is kind of the opposite; it sounds like he's playing through a Marshall, and the drum kit's not that audible.
A: Chip played through a Music Man 220 HD, on his Les Paul Jr. Tony played a Gibson Thunderbird bass, through a 18 inch reflex speaker cabinet. I was on my 5pc Champagne Ludwigs. Zildian cymbals. I have them, still.
Q: But there's a real difference in the repertoire.
A: The Portland tape is the earlier, I'd say. I'm sure it's '78, versus all the later stuff, like the St. John's tape ( 79 ). I would guess it's late '78 because songs like “Spliff City” are on it. There’s also a sense of frantic desperation, coloring every tune. Hot damn.
Q: It's classic, that song “Citizen” has always been one of my favorites.
A: I hope that Chip & Tony will allow it to be released. The cover songs are great, too. (Chip demanded $5000 up front, at the last minute, early 2001.) " Live in Portland/ Dils 78"- has yet to be released in its entirety.
“Wimp”- that is a tremendous version. I can't ever remember playing that song with the Dils. I played it once with the Zeros. I was one of their biggest fans, and we were all really good friends. At one of their shows, we're all backstage, and the crowd's demanding a third encore or something, going apeshit, & drummer Baba hands me his sticks, - & says, “You're on, dude.” We played “Wimp”. Ohmigod...
Q: Great; just two things. Describe your musical efforts after the Dils; what have you been a part of, what have you worked on, what happened?
A: I helped launch someone on a world-wide career that I wish I hadn't; who shall remain nameless. Subsequently, I stopped playing music for a couple years after that. It had left such a bad taste in my heart, soul, & ears. I almost got rid of my drums.
Then I got into the bike messenger world, in San Francisco; where some of the functional punks had migrated. I believe a similar thing happened in Portland and Seattle. That didn’t happen in Los Angeles, - they haven’t a bike messenger scene at all, so I hear. Now we have jobs. I guess it's kinda like the ‘Mod’ thing, in the sixties. You wear the suit during the day so you can have your music at night. But bike messengers don't dress up. I've been part of the bike messenger world since late '84. I‘ve played in a few messenger bands -‘The Johnsons’, ‘Folkings’, ‘The Love Gods’, & ‘The Mountebanks’; - all with John Thaxton, who was a tremendous songwriter. I love ‘im. & then, ‘the Proj’.
Q: P R O J ?
A: Yes. Which is 90’s messenger slang for the herb. I prefer Huffbo Chente; as the term. We were a psychedelic power trio; influenced by the Who, Jimi Hendrix, & the Kinks. We shredded. We even covered “Blow Up”.
I did a dub recording project that I'm quite proud of. The Meerkats. Something for us to listen to, and make copies of; for friends, you know. Augustus Pablo... I had one guy listen to it at the Wall one day on headphones; I had it on cassette. He listened to it for about a minute, takes it off, and says, “This is tremendous, who is this? This sounds like King Tubby!” I said, “Well, thank you! That's three white guys from San Francisco who barely know what they're doing.” “You gotta be cra-” He pleaded with me to get in touch with him, & do some shows at the Maritime Hall. “I’m in charge of booking the reggae bands here! I want you guys, here! You're great! Perhaps I can get a album out of you?”
The problem is, the bass player was a very odd, but talented guy who wouldn't let me have his phone number. By the time I find him, three or four months later, he’s like, “Oh, well, we don't need them.” And then he disappears again. Hey K.O.! Whoa! Hey! I eventually had to give up on him, as brilliant as the music was ...
Q: One last thing - any final comments about the Dils?
A: I believe that we were the greatest band in the world - for a little while there.
Q: At least for a moment or two.
A: We were the best band on earth. Who cares? We did not capitalize. Draw y’own conclusions. We were kind of our own worst enemies, sometimes. There were people who’d offered to help, people with pull-that was such a rare thing, back then. & we’d alienate them. Well, not me, but. The bros sure would.
Q: But at least some recordings exist, to glimpse the greatness.
A: Oh Yeah, the first two Dils singles are absolutely brilliant. I admire those records. They were pioneering recordings. They were well ahead of all the rest. The Dils were different than a lot of the other punk bands. You could sing along with us; - there were melodies, there were harmonies, there were bridges and choruses and middle-eights, and intros and outros, and, well - all the rest.
Q: I really love that loopy intro to “Class War.”
A: That was supposed to be a reggae intro, believe it or not. It was the Dils playing reggae, at the beginning of “Class War”. You know, we were fierce, but you could still dance to us. Most 4-4 punk just leaves me cold. Seems like it just loses it’s guts, ‘cause they're trying so hard to play so fast. It's just... ah, I don't know . Where’s the roll? They are getting better, tho, I believe.
It was tricky for me, when they insisted that I play like Moon. I was having a difficult time reconciling the fact that I wanted to play a big beat, but all the while they wanted all kinds of fuckin' mayhem to be going on with the drums. So I had to teach myself how to be a wild man around the tom-toms and cymbals and everything, make lots of noise, - according to each song, of course.
I wasn't just making noise for the hell of it, - and at the same time making it danceable, and each song having a definite structure, drumwise. I wasn't doing the same thing every fucking song, like a lot of the drummers I saw. They'd just do the same backbeat (vocally imitates:) ‘Tch-tch-Tch-tch-Tch-Tch-tch,’ song after song after song. God love ‘em, but the Dils songs didn’t lend themselves to that. No way...
Hey!
It should be noted that, when I came in - Every tune was 1-2-3-4! AS FAST AS POSSIBLE! I changed things somewhat. I Rock, & Roll. & Swing ... Hard. Ringo, Charlie, Bonham, Allison, Purdie/Soul & 70’s reggae. These were, & remain; my primary influences. “Can’t you go a bit wilder?” That's when I started going all around on the toms. Baba of the Zeros used to do an impersonation of me; air drumming - It looked like he was hammering nails with both hands, going around in a circle.
I have a rehearsal tape that we called ‘The Big 3’. Iguana Studios 5/78. Way raw. It was the day that we clicked; the moment that everything finally fell into place. We did 1st time instrumental versions of ‘Gimme a Break’, ‘Some Things Never Change’ & ‘Tell Me What I Want To Hear’. Ohmigod. There's also one that doesn't have a name. Sounds kinda like Jeff Beck, or Hendrix. It was nasty, danceable, & never turned into a song. Oh, well.
That was the Dils' sound, from that day on. We then knew how to play together. It wasn't forced, & we weren't trying to replicate the singles. We’d found our sound at last. But for foolishness, & treachery, somehow; we were the best band on earth. Briefly.
Q: Was there a favorite song of yours to play?
A: “Some Things Never Change.”
Q: Has that ever been issued?
A: (reaches for the Black & Yellow LP) Here it is. The great thing about this song is- right near the end, where you anticipate the resolve, all of a sudden there's a change; where we do a sort of a coda, kind of an ironic fadeaway. It's haunting, & achingly beautiful.
Q: & then there’s ‘ Love House ’ ...
A: Once at the Temple Beautiful, we were just debuting that tune, or we hadn't been doing it for long. There was a band opening for us called ‘Phone Bill’. True World music. They were all from everywhere. Africa, South America, Haiti, Brazil, etc. This nine-piece band. They were awesome! They were scary, they were so good. Whatever became of them all? After we sound check, I'm watching them check. One of them walks over to me and says, “That song you just did”. (‘Love House’) He says, “That tune is really unique, you know, that's not a rock beat”. “What do you mean”? He says, “You're playing an African 6/8 there, man”. The song had been inspired by Aretha Franklin’s version of “You Send Me”, among other things. “This is a 6/8; & how a white guy plays it,” he said, pounding on the edge of the stage with his hands. “But this is what you’re doing”, and he plays the african style 6/8, that ‘Love House’ had. I said, “ Wow ! (laughs) I just play what it seems like the song needs.” He say, “Oh, keep it up man - it's brilliant, y’know.”
Q: To delve into a different subject, one thing I find so interesting about that era is that when some shows were booked, it wasn't like three bands of the same genre-
A: No, not at all. Diversity flourished mightily, every show.
Q: The different styles of music that the bands would play was a total jumble. I don't know to what degree it cross-influenced, if any, but it was really neat to go to a show, and not really know what these unknown bands would play like. It was so cool.
A: Even if all three or four bands were punk bands, very often, one band from the next was like night and day. Definitely. Look at 'Louder, Faster, Shorter,' you can see it right there. Those bands were so unlike one another, but still, we were all part of the crusade, you know. We lived for our time, we believed in one another, we championed one another.
Q: Do you recall any lost recordings or films? This is kind of like intelligence for me; anybody ever make any super-duper live recordings on multi-track?
A: The ‘Dils in the Red Zone’ video was filmed in a redneck bar, with chicken-wire across the front of the stage, just like something out of the “Blues Brothers”. Cowboys playing pool at the soundcheck, looking at us like ‘What the fuck is this’? But the place filled with people, and we played a hell of a show, and I guess someone video'd it. I've never seen it. Help anyone?
Q: Any audio recordings? Anyone ever show up and multitrack anything?
A: I know of one film that was done properly. I think they were film students. They had us entering this building out on Third street, this big rehearsal studio. Flipper used to rehearse there, a lot of bands used to rehearse out there. They filmed us coming in, in the middle of the night, carrying our guitars, wearing overcoats. They used real film, it wasn't video. They were walking backwards, & had a dolly or something, in front of us. We came into the building, and went up the freight elevator, it was kind of a gritty, industrial look, I guess. Huge cavernous hallways. Vast emptiness.
We unlock this room, and go in. Our equipment's all set up,the lights are on. We just plug in and play “Blow Up”. They had cameras on cranes, up in the air above us, and everything: high-tech for that time. It was a real professional film shoot, and I'm certain we did it in one take. I heard an audio tape of it not long afterwards, & I'd give my eye-teeth for one.
Oh, there's one other thing that just came to mind. There was a guy named Allen who was like nineteen years old; AWOL from the USAF. We built a ‘fuck’ band around him called “Allen as Elvis & the B Dils”. The set list, performed at the Deaf Club; consisted of early beatles/stones/kinks/b.holly & was a smash. I’d love to have that tape, too.
PART ONE HERE
PART TWO HERE
My Chip Kinman interview
from April 2001.
